Shining a light on leadership, culture, and marginalization with Jamie Fiore Higgins

On this episode of Navigating Forward, Lisa Thee from Launch Consulting sits down with Jamie Fiore Higgins, author and ex-Goldman Sachs Managing Director. They discuss how company culture — and the differences between the version espoused by leadership and the actual version that employees experience — can impact both employee engagement and innovation. They touch on how having a vision isn't enough because it takes leadership curiosity to ensure it's being followed in practice. The pair also chats about some of the topics from Jamie's book, Bully Market, including how marginalization is hiding right in plain sight most of the time. 

Find Lisa at https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisathee/

Find Jamie at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiefiorehiggins/
https://jamiefiorehiggins.com/

Learn more about Launch Consulting at https://www.launchconsulting.com/

Transcript

00:00:03:08 - 00:00:44:26
Narrator
Welcome to Navigating Forward, brought to you by Launch Consulting, where we explore the ever-evolving world of technology, data, and the incredible potential for artificial intelligence. Our experts come together with the brightest minds in AI and technology, discovering the stories behind the latest advancements across industries. Our mission: to guide you through the rapidly changing landscape of tech, demystifying complex concepts and showcasing the opportunities that lie ahead. Join us as we uncover what your business needs to do now to prepare for what's coming next. This is Navigating Forward.

00:00:44:28 - 00:01:12:15
Lisa Thee
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Navigating Forward podcast. My name is Lisa Thee and I'll be your host today. Today I have the honor of introducing Jamie Fiore Higgins. Jamie is a Financial Times 25 Most Influential Women of 2022, and she's also one of my favorite authors of the book Bully Market: My Story of Money and Misogyny at Goldman Sachs. Jamie, thank you for joining us.

00:01:12:22 - 00:01:15:03
Jamie Fiore Higgins
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

00:01:15:10 - 00:01:34:17
Lisa Thee
So, Jamie, I think you have such an interesting backstory in terms of your rise into power in the heart of the financial industry and then stepping into being a published author. Do you mind telling us a little bit about your backstory of growing up and how you think it influenced you to thrive in these different environments?

00:01:34:19 - 00:02:26:09
Jamie Fiore Higgins
So ironically, I was a bit of an unlikely hire on Wall Street. I didn't even want to even work there, but it was really encouraged by my family. My family are immigrants from Italy, grew up in poverty, my parents, and really felt that every generation has to do better. So, when I was graduating college, I kind of wanted to do a more helper/healer career, social work, medicine, and their view was, you need to get the best paying job possible. And in 1998, that was Wall Street. And if you wanted to work at Wall Street, everyone said the brass ring was Goldman. So like I said, I was an unlikely hire. I kind of went less about me having some amazing career, just more about me supporting my family and making them proud.

00:02:26:09 - 00:03:24:20
Jamie Fiore Higgins
And that was the biggest fuel. What I observed at Goldman was certainly I wasn't the only person who came from modest means, but many of the people who are my new peers, the other new hires were from affluent families, a lot of them children of senior Goldman people, children of big Goldman clients. I definitely felt like an outsider, but I kind of used that being an outsider as a bit of a superpower because I just focused on sticking my head down, doing a good job. You know, good old-fashioned grit. They used to call me FILO, the accounting term for first and last out, because they said, you know what, I'm not bringing to the table connections, knowledge of fine restaurants in the city or Broadway shows or knowing, you know, the best neighborhood in the Hamptons to go to. But I knew I could bring really hard work. And that served me quite well during my career and absolutely got me recognized.

00:03:24:24 - 00:03:39:07
Lisa Thee
Jamie, that is so relatable. If you extract immigrants from Italy to immigrants from Germany, and then you replace the financial industry with the tech industry, I feel like our stories very much mirror each other. So, you were putting in the time and the grit?

00:03:39:10 - 00:04:19:25
Jamie Fiore Higgins
Yeah, that's right. And I feel like I was maybe able to make quite a few inroads in my business because I was willing to do anything. You know, like being raised by my grandmother who lived through the Depression it was very much like every little thing makes a difference. I always said, like, I would pick up pennies, I would work with the smallest clients. I would do some of the more menial tasks that actually brought in revenue. Now, for a lot of my colleagues, they almost turn their nose up at it. And so, in some ways I was able to create new revenue streams by just getting my hands a little dirtier than most of my colleagues wanted to.

00:04:19:27 - 00:04:41:29
Lisa Thee
And in your experience doing that, you obviously have to be a bit strategic in what you take on because there's always a list of tasks that nobody wants to do that could take a few lifetimes to get completed. So how do you use data to influence what you chose to invest in? How do you think through what were the right places to apply all of that stamina to?

00:04:42:02 - 00:06:06:05
Jamie Fiore Higgins
So, what I did was a lot of modeling in terms of getting curious and observing what made successful clients on the larger client side, right. So, a lot of the more seasoned people, the more senior people, had these big clients. But I would try to kind of mull through my clients to say which ones, If I apply the right strategies, could possibly either get to the size of those clients or the margins would be so big that they didn't have to be as big of a client in order to generate that revenue. So, it was a lot of kind of modeling. And Goldman Sachs is definitely very much an apprentice workplace. So, it was kind of listening, observing, looking at the trends of these other clients, then looking at the potential clients I was going to pick up and say which ones, if I attack the right way, have the potential to turn as much revenue. And so, it was looking at different trends, looking at different sectors, looking at market share and then trying to almost mimic the recipe of what made a really value client and then trying the recipe on the smaller guys. And some of the recipes turned out great. Some were flops. But net net, my book had a lot more winners than losers.

00:06:06:08 - 00:06:28:20
Lisa Thee
Absolutely. And in that, are there any trends or things that you learned from doing all that deep work of reflection? I think sometimes we learn more from our failures than our successes, so I'd be curious to hear a success story in that mix. And then also maybe something you learned from trying something out, and we could save people the time and the effort of attempting again.

00:06:28:22 - 00:07:40:06
Jamie Fiore Higgins
So, I always think that Nelson Mandela phrase, I never lose, I either win or learn. So, I really tried very hard to, so I guess my advice would be in any kind of quote-unquote, failure, there is always pieces that could then be reapplied like almost, if I use my recipe analogy, if my recipe flopped with one customer, well, it's not because the recipe stunk. It was probably a couple ingredients that that stunk. So, kind of looking at each situation and saying, okay, what drove the quote-unquote failure? And you're constantly kind of tweaking. So, to me, I use everything, the wins and the losses, as information because just because you have a winning recipe doesn't mean that's going to work in perpetuity. So, you always have to be very mindful of all the different elements that are making you successful and are allowing you to kind of put your best foot forward and kind of leverage the best parts of the situation and kind of always updating a playbook, if you will, because like I said, even the wins don't win forever.

00:07:40:07 - 00:08:14:16
Jamie Fiore Higgins
And so, to me, it's approaching each situation with curiosity and humility. Curiosity that with what can I learn from everything and humility, as you know what, like just because I did it right this time doesn't mean I'm going to do it right the next ten times. And I feel like a lot of hubris is what eventually lets even former successful people tank over time. Because there isn’t that humility that, yeah, maybe I could be doing better. Or maybe, you know, if I continue on this path, you know, yeah, maybe I'll continue to win. But maybe if I changed and tweaked, I could just do so much more.

00:08:14:18 - 00:08:58:13
Lisa Thee
Jamie, I was at a conference yesterday at UC Berkeley and I heard their head of entrepreneurship and innovation, Rich Lyons, give a new working definition of innovation. And he said that innovation is really new ideas put into practice. So, I love how you created your own way of modeling and anticipating who were the best bets and then kept tweaking because that's exactly right. There is no innovation without failures. It's the price of admission, and you have to have that psychological safety to be able to fail. So, what was it in Goldman's culture and some of their employee engagement that allowed you to keep trying in that manner to thrive?

00:08:58:15 - 00:09:38:19
Jamie Fiore Higgins
I love that you brought up psychological safety because sadly, I don't think Goldman had a lot of that. I think I was very fortunate because when I was playing around, I was dealing with some low stakes clients that had never really been touched before. So that gave me more of a playground to experiment, right? Like, to me, what is innovation more than just different experiments, right? Having ideas, trying it out. So that really served me well, that I took advantage of that. A lot of people looked at the clients I first looked at and said, eh, they're not even worth your time. To me, they were my like testing center, if you will.

00:09:38:22 - 00:09:49:13
Lisa Thee
It sounds very entrepreneurial, so you really are a living example of intrapreneurship and being able to create your own North Star within the realm of what you could control.

00:09:49:16 - 00:10:35:04
Jamie Fiore Higgins
To a point, right. So, to a point. And I think that what made me more frustrated was as my book of business got bigger and I was I was contributing to a larger part of the P&L, unfortunately, I felt like the creativity and the entrepreneurship kind of tightened because with more at risk, right, people were less open to tweaking. And so, you know, fortunately for me, I had this playground to kind of get me to a certain place. And there was definitely frustration as I rose the ranks that there was a lot more groupthink and a lot less independent ideas being popped around.

00:10:35:06 - 00:11:10:17
Lisa Thee
So that's really interesting. I would love to hear more about your perspective, obviously, what the title of your book, employee engagement wasn't the ideal playground for you. Do you mind sharing a little bit about how the tone of leadership affected you over time as a high performer? To a point where they weren't ready for you to leave, right? They would have happily kept you employed for many moons as long as you kept your mouth shut and kept working. So, can you tell me a little bit about how that tone of leadership can affect the employee engagement, especially of those high performing innovators that are so difficult to find out there in the world?

00:11:10:20 - 00:12:38:22
Jamie Fiore Higgins
So, I think tone of leadership has multiple meanings. What I found at Goldman was quite a dichotomy between what the official leadership tone was and yet what it was in practice. So, the absolute official leadership tone from the C-suite is just all about that. It's about having a flat organization where people feel empowered to kind of innovate and, you know, find new ways of doing things and challenge thought. Unfortunately, though, that view only works when it's actually model down the chain. So even though the C-suite said the right things, the people who, the partners who led my, you know, product area were not like that. And so unfortunately, what it ended up feeling very much was like you were hitting your head against a brick wall. And because I had had that opportunity to be so creative in my younger years, I saw potential. I saw possibility. And it would often fall on dead ears because although in theory, innovation was encouraged, in reality, it really wasn't. Status quo and assimilation was encouraged. And that made for an extremely frustrating workplace. And I mean, not only just from the business side, but also from just the culture of being an employee there, that for me, it just made it untenable, and I had to leave.

00:12:39:00 - 00:13:02:14
Lisa Thee
Yeah, and I can relate to those feelings. It feels like you get to a certain level of seniority where it goes from being 80% results and 20% politics, and then that flips, right? And so, the people that are really great at playing that political game tend to thrive. And oftentimes they're looking for a message of consistency because they're managing up, right.

00:13:02:17 - 00:13:59:28
Jamie Fiore Higgins
That's exactly right. And I definitely felt like the game had changed for me. Like, I remember very specifically saying, like, I knew the rules of this game. I played this game really well, right? Like, I knew the skill set to be successful personally, but for my business to be successful, to contribute to the firm, and then at some point of my career, it was like, wait a second. Like I was playing basketball and now I'm playing lacrosse. And no one told me that the game changed, and that the skill set needed was totally different. And I found the skill set was much more about politics, which I'm an incredibly straightforward person, that's kind of not my jam. I think it has multiple costs. It has cost because you get to lose good people like me, and it's a cost because the businesses truly don't grow and innovate to the extent they could. And so yeah, things are great, right? Things might be great. Yeah, earnings might be great. But the question is, could they be so much better?

00:14:00:02 - 00:15:04:01
Lisa Thee
And you have everybody's retirement plans in your hands when you're working at large firms like that, right? It's all the hard-working people that we grew up around. And you feel that sense of responsibility, I think in a different way when you come from a community that's being served in some of these places. So, Jamie, from there, one of the things that really stood out to me in reading your book was that you were just brutally honest about what it's really like to be in a marginalized group within a large organization. And I thought it was so refreshing to hear the truth-telling that I feel like sometimes people will talk about with one trusted friend and you were just brave enough to put it out there to the world. So, I guess my question to you is how did you summon enough guts to be that honest? And secondarily, how did it affect you once you became this well-known author and everybody can see your story?

00:15:04:04 - 00:16:22:28
Jamie Fiore Higgins
So, I think the term guts is interesting because what I would say, the more guts you have, the less you care about what other people think. So, I don't think I had the guts to write the true story more than I wasn't afraid. I wasn't afraid of the mothership of Goldman anymore. And that kind of not caring about what anyone else thought and just kind of standing in what the truth was gave me the guts. And for a big, powerful organization like Goldman, I mean, number one, it's just a powerful organization in the world. But when you work for them, they wield an incredible amount of power over you. And so, I went from, quite frankly, not telling the truth at all to like saying, you know what, who am I hiding from, protecting myself from, or protecting? The only people I really care about what they think of me are my family, my parents, my family of origin, my brother and sister, my husband, my children, and a few dear friends. And I had told them all about the book and had them read the book. So, once I had their buy-in I said, who am I afraid of? And that gave me the guts, because quite honestly, I'm not afraid of anybody.

00:16:23:19 - 00:16:51:27
Lisa Thee
That’s a really good lesson for leaders that might be listening to this podcast is, you know, in in systems where you set a tone, there might be a lot of security and feeling like you have leeway, but there will be embedded truth tellers at every scalable company. And it's incredibly important that you're aware of what's happening with your middle management that's actually implementing these policies because that will be the legacy that you leave.

00:16:52:00 - 00:18:22:06
Jamie Fiore Higgins
Yeah, 100%. And so, I think when I think about my experience at Goldman, how it was so counter to what the C-suite claimed to be and wanted to be. And I believe that when they say they want things to be that way, they do. But I always joke and say, Lisa, it's kind of like my kids’ elementary school playground, right? The kids go out for recess and the principal says, you know, no hitting, no biting, whatever. But if those kids aren’t policed, it'd be like Lord of the Flies, right? You need the teachers on the playground to enforce and make sure it happens. And I think for a lot of businesses, you know, the C-suite’s on one level and everyone else is on another.

And there's no curiosity to check in, right. It would be a principal letting all the kids out and sitting in their offices and, oh, I told them to be nice to each other, it'll be fine. No, you have to go look, look out the window and see what's really going on. And what I found was a set-it-and-forget-it mentality by the senior leadership to say, oh, I said it was going to be this way, so it's going to be this way. No, no, no, no. Get curious. Pay attention, see what's going on. And again, kind of going back to, you know, having some humility to say, you know what, yeah, I set these things as goals, but you know what? I'll double check that it's really happening. And I think it takes a really strong leader to display that curiosity and humility. But that's what makes a great leader.

00:18:22:06 - 00:19:52:16
Lisa Thee
I agree with you. And I also think that as so many companies are going to be disrupted with these new digital transformations that are going to be table stakes for actually competing in the field, things like AI. Can't go anywhere without hearing the term anymore, it's on every news channel, it’s at every conference, yada, yada. But what we've learned from all these prior digital transformations that came before it is that these projects typically don't fail because of the technology. They fail because of not bringing the people along with them. So, it is going to be that differentiator of who can actually pivot and adopt these competitive advantages. And so, for our listeners that are thinking through how to do that, you know, innovation is a team sport, it's not a solo sport. You don't have to do this alone. So, I highly recommend that you start to look at your partner ecosystem and make sure that you have people that can help guide you, that are experts in these different areas. Because I think as a leader it's incredibly unrealistic that you would have the time to do all the things you're already doing and. So, there are ways to leverage the people on that journey with you.

So, I am going to shift a little bit to a new topic because I almost never run into a C-suite leader that doesn't tell me that somewhere on their bucket list is writing a book. So as a successful published author, can you tell us a little bit about that journey for you? Because I think there's a lot of people that would like it demystified. How do you get your story out there?

00:19:52:18 - 00:20:55:08
Jamie Fiore Higgins
Well, I think the question has to start with what's the idea that needs to be shared with the world? Meaning a lot of people say, oh, I want to write a book. I've had this like body of work, body of experiences, which I'm sure is true. Right. For any C-suite leader, they probably had that body of work. But I think it's really important to start with a distillation of it and say, what is the message that I'm bringing to the world and how is it going to change perspective? And, you know, I really do believe that books do that. And again, it doesn't have to be a huge thing. It's just that it has to kind of shift perspective a little bit.

So, I think it's super important to always kind of start with that North Star. Like, why am I writing this book? And how do I hope it's going to change minds and hearts of my readers? Because listen, there's a ton of books out there, right? Books are being published every week. So, I think that's the first thing to kind of really determine your North Star and figure out what it is.

00:20:55:10 - 00:21:00:04
Lisa Thee
Absolutely. So, can you tell, did you know your North Star when you started writing?

00:21:00:06 - 00:22:12:09
Jamie Fiore Higgins
No, I didn't. But I have to tell you, I couldn't have put myself in front of an agent or editors until I did that. So, kind of like what comes first, the chicken or the egg? I just feel like perhaps if I had done that first, it would have. Listen, I don't think anything anyone writes is ever wasted. You know, it's like everything written could be repurposed into something. Maybe if it never is a published piece of writing, it could inspire a talk, a conversation, a podcast, that kind of thing. But I do think that that has to happen. So, to me, if you're going to write a book and you're not going to hire a ghostwriter to do it and you're going to actually write it, you have to start where like the juice is for you.

You have to start with what is most exciting for you to write about, meaning what most might be exciting at first is specing out the North Star in the outline, or maybe the first exciting thing you want to write about is a big project you worked on and how it really illustrated your innovation and your teamwork. So, to me you have to do whatever is going to get you in the, is going to get your butt in the seat and start writing.

00:22:12:11 - 00:22:21:06
Lisa Thee
So, Jamie, at the end of a two-year cycle of writing, what did your North Star evolve to become? What was the message you really want people to get out of Bully Market?

00:22:21:08 - 00:24:22:28
Jamie Fiore Higgins
For me, Bully Market is all about shining a light on what really goes on in the workplace in terms of equality. I think that a lot of things happen in our offices today that people don't want to get their hands dirty with but have real impact on the pipeline of business and inevitably, who runs your business over time. So, I really wanted to shine a light on what that looks like, what that really looks like when I say people feel marginalized, right? It's a big term, but what does that really look like in the day to day? It is hiding in plain sight most times. It is literally who's talking in meetings. It's literally who feels comfortable to have pictures of their family on their desk. All those little things inspire how people show up in their workplace and how they feel confident and safe communicating their ideas. Because those ideas are the fuel for your innovation and your next business idea. 

So, I want to shine a light on that topic to inspire conversation and to really have both employees and leaders look at their workplaces and hopefully create some change with how they run things for the better, so more people are in roles of influence, more people with different backgrounds, with different skin color, with different opinions and perspectives. Because we all know, I mean, how many Harvard Business, you know, studies have shown that the more diverse your workforce, the more innovative you are, the more money you make. And so, I feel like everyone kind of knows that, but I feel like no one really gets curious and thinks about, okay, well, what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? And in my story, it's more of a cautionary tale and how it doesn't look like in order for people to get more curious and get more involved in paying attention on how little ripples over time make just as much of an impact as a big wave.

00:24:23:00 - 00:24:28:06
Lisa Thee
So, you really are highlighting the rhetoric versus the reality of the modern day workplace.

00:24:28:08 - 00:24:29:09
Jamie Fiore Higgins
That's exactly right.

00:24:29:09 - 00:27:23:06
Lisa Thee
And I will tell you that you accomplished your mission, because when I had the opportunity to pick up your book, which was you know, you did Good Morning America, you did Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, you had some of the best media coverage that an author could identify. And that's how I found you. I will say I was early in my manuscript process and refining that North Star. And once I got great clarity from the way you were honest in your book, to really include people and bring people along your journey with you, and that that was men, that was women, that was anybody that feels just like they're a little bit lucky to be where they are. To be in that room, I think can relate to how those small slights impacted you differently.

I mean, you were brave enough to go out there and talk about medical emergencies you were handling by yourself in the women's restroom so that nobody knew that you were dealing with something life-changing at that moment. You were brave enough to go there to talk about being physically threatened by an employee that you had to performance manage. You were brave enough to talk about what cost it had for your psychological safety and what medication you had to use to even just be able to sleep at night. And the gap between your persona of always-on professional, perfect Jamie that's making seven figures and the reality of the costs that it came at as a mom of young children trying to keep a marriage alive was just glaringly obvious.

And what you helped me to refine in my North star of my book, Go: Reboot Your Career in 90 Days, was that I wanted to take all of those innovators and encourage them to step into their leadership as either intrapreneurs or entrepreneurs because we're not going to have responsible innovation unless we have leaders that are allowed to step forward and keep embracing that creativity. And that's not going to happen in systems that silence them when they finally get to a role where they have some kind of power or influence. So, I want to give you a huge thank you, because there were many times that I thought about, oh, boy, should I just keep my mouth shut. I have a really good thing going as a leader, an executive, in artificial intelligence, it’s a hot topic. I could command nice jobs very easily, but I do think if we're going to really live in a society that we all actually want to survive in a generation or two from now, it's going to be on the backs of innovators and leaders that are willing to have the hard conversations, that are willing to stay curious and willing to lead and not just corral people towards the next thing that will make the stock market look great.

00:27:23:09 - 00:28:05:00
Jamie Fiore Higgins
No, I totally agree. And I'm just thinking a little bit about how we kicked off with AI. And I feel like now more than ever, as technology more and more has a role in our day to day, we have to get our hands dirty a little bit with what makes us human, because that's the value-add we have now more than ever, right? It's not our mind computation because we have, you know, computers that could do that quicker than we can. So, what are we bringing as humans to the table? It's our it's our humanness, it’s our creativity that you can't retrofit in a machine. So, in order to really leverage that, we need that safety.

00:28:05:02 - 00:28:18:13
Lisa Thee
Yeah, because I do believe that you're not going to be competing with computers for your jobs of the future. You're going to be competing with people that know how to leverage AI to do what they do as a subject matter expertise.

00:28:18:16 - 00:28:40:01
Jamie Fiore Higgins
That's the human side. That's the human side. And so that's more than ever what we need to be focused on and thinking about in light of this. It's our humanness that's going to make us special. It's our humanness paired with the AI, right? You know, studies have shown that, you know, obviously AI is great, but AI plus an engaged human is better.

00:28:40:08 - 00:29:19:06
Lisa Thee
Human in the loop, I think is going to be the way to go for the very foreseeable future. And just the same way that, you know, coming from immigrant parents and grandparents, both of us, that we were told go do the hard sciences, that's where the jobs are, that's where the money is. That's also the most repetitive, tedious tasks that computers are excellent at. And so, it's going to be very interesting to see the structural impacts in large organizations when you inject that into systems that don't value the humanness of the creatives today. I don't think they're going to survive and thrive.

00:29:19:09 - 00:29:19:26
Jamie Fiore Higgins
That's right.

00:29:19:27 - 00:29:23:05
Lisa Thee
Everybody just caught up with that competitive advantage. You no longer have it.

00:29:23:05 - 00:29:48:08
Jamie Fiore Higgins
That's right. And so that's why it's imperative if you want to get the juice out of a human right, like you need to have an environment where people feel comfortable to express themselves, to express their opinions, to show their different ways of doing things. And that's going to be more important than ever, because that's going to be that extra thing that's going to get you those extra returns.

00:29:48:11 - 00:30:12:25
Lisa Thee
Yeah, those magical ideas are going to be harvested from discretionary energy of employees. It is not going to be assigned work that's going to differentiate in this next product and services market. Jamie, for all of our listeners that would like to learn more about your story and connect with you, what are the best ways to follow you and make sure that they can stay up to speed with your journey?

00:30:13:00 - 00:31:20:04
Jamie Fiore Higgins
So, my website is Jamie Fiore Higgins dot com. You can subscribe to my newsletter there. I'm on LinkedIn, you can contact me on my website. I respond to everybody. I love nothing more than to not only hear from my readers, their feedback, the good, the bad, and the ugly. But I love being in conversation with employees today where it's like, okay, great story Jamie, what can we be doing better? And so, I love my role as a consultant to companies, as an executive coach to really get our hands dirty with these topics in order to, listen, it's like we fix these problems in organizations from the top down to the bottom up. So, I love working with organizations from the top down in terms of like really getting, really speaking the truth and also from the bottom up to work with, you know, the Lisa Thees of, you know, 2023 and 24 and the Jamie Fiores of 2023 and 24 in terms of helping them advocating for themselves and getting the most out of their careers as they add the most value to their companies.

00:31:20:11 - 00:31:31:0
Lisa Thee
Thank you so much, Jamie. And for any of the listeners that are fond of audible books, I highly, highly recommend the audible version of Jamie's book. She reads it herself.

00:31:31:04 - 00:31:33:11
Jamie Fiore Higgins
In my raspy New Jersey accent.

00:31:33:18 - 00:31:53:05
Lisa Thee
Oh, I remember driving around in my car doing the, you know, drop-offs and pickups for all the kids’ activities for days, just deliriously happy to feel like I'm sitting with a girlfriend, having an honest, refreshing conversation. And so, for all of you, I cannot encourage you enough to pick up Bully Market. Everyone can get something from this book.

00:31:53:05 - 00:32:02:11
Lisa Thee
And Jamie is an incredible leader. Thank you so much for bringing your talent and your voice to the conversation Jamie. We're so grateful to have you here today.

00:32:02:14 - 00:32:04:03
Jamie Fiore Higgins
Thank you for having me.